6 years ago Caleb

I realize this will be controversial, but I strongly believe you will not have a sucessful site with “top” answers without having answers that have a special reason to be sent to the “bottom”, and also that the “bottom” needs to be below zero.

  • On most sites (and hence in general user perception) 0 votes signals a lack of engagement, and hence this is generally viewed as neutral. An outright dangerous answer with a score of zero will still look like something people might try.

  • On all sites, you will have some small amount of “bad” signal — people will upvote stupid answers.

In both scenarios experts NEED to be able to send a negative signal. Upvotes vs. more of upvotes helps sort good from bad answers, but sending only positive signals is not enough.

Case in point:

Q. How do I enable and start apache?

A(+6). systemd enable --now httpd

A(+1). rm -rf /etc/httpd

Top Answer
6 years ago Paul White

I would not like to see downvotes implemented as they are on Stack Overflow Inc. sites.

That said, there is an argument to be made for more feedback options than simply stars, or lack thereof. I haven’t seen that argument made convincingly yet.

Nevertheless, if needed, I am quite tempted by the idea of emoji feedback:

emoji options description
⭐️ 😃 good
😐 neutral
😦 😢 😠 ❌ not good

For example, a good answer might be labelled:

⭐️ x8

…a reasonably good answer:

⭐️ x2 😐 x4

…and a poor one:

😦 x5 😐 x1


I think only ⭐️ (= 😃) should award +1 score. The other emoji should affect display ranking, but not user score.

My main reservation is that adding new “lazy feedback” options will in practice dissuade people from doing what we really want them to do: give written feedback, or edit to improve.

Outright dangerous posts should be flagged and deleted. We don’t want those. And to be clear, at least for the Databases site, I would prefer to see mediocre content removed over time as well.

Answer #2
6 years ago Monica

This is related to Paul’s answer suggesting reactions.

An idea that has come up in Codidact’s discussions (inconclusively so far) is having reactions to supplement votes rather than replace them. Reactions, unlike votes, are public (attributed). They serve two main purposes:

  • Highlighting an under-valued, good answer – this answer doesn’t have a high score (maybe it was missed, maybe it was late, whatever) but look, Jon Skeet gave it a thumbs-up!

  • Providing warnings about things that are dangerous – the crowd upvoted this because it sounded right, but it has caution marks from three people and I recognize two of them as knowing their stuff.

I agree with Paul that reactions shouldn’t contribute to score, and also his concern that people might use them instead of votes/stars, but if we can provide the right guidance in the UI I think it’s worth allowing this extra signal, or at least giving it a try and seeing what happens. (As with many other things, individual communities should be able to turn it on or off.)

Answer #3
6 years ago Jack Douglas

I realize this will be controversial

Not controversial with me, as I’m on record as being a fan of downvotes on SE:

However the points you raise can be solved another way, by deleting dangerous and very bad content. Note that I agree that we do need to solve this one way or another.

We haven’t quite worked through the nuances of how flagging/deletion will work in its first iteration, but when we do I’ll update this post.


Update: now that we have the first tools in place to deal with dangerous or very bad answers, I’m marking this as “won’t-fix” — with the proviso that we have the option of changing course later if necessary. Adding downvotes will not be an impossible task later because the database has been designed with the assumption that we might need them.

Answer #4
5 years ago gop

The problem is in the concept of a simplicistic, single, rating.

I have a strong feeling that a large part of the problems not only of Stack Exchange but of the current web altogether derive from the squeezing of the complexity of the thought into a single vote, and to the hyper-magnification of the importance of this vote.


On Stack Exchange for example, on the surface it would seem that you should upvote every post that you liked a lot, and downvote every one that you didn’t.
But is it really how it goes? How many posts with hundreds of downvotes are there?
Pretty much none apart from those of the faceless company spokepersons!
That’s because if you see 3 downvotes to a poor answer you think “the poor guy has had it enough”. And you’re aware of the effect of the downvotes to the reputation, and of what that affects in turn.
As for the upvotes, did it ever feel unfair that the first guy who sent a stupid question about the news of the day got 5k points straightaway, when you barely made a few hundreds in years of diligent contribution?
And have you ever refrained from upvoting a good post after seeing it has already 200 upvotes?
Of course you have, otherwise there would be many posts in the tens of thousands of votes!

So what the people is actually doing is, very roughly, giving a score to the posts.

But even though the “collective mind” unwittingly goes in the direction of scores, with the current “indirect” system that are inevitably frequent unfair extremes, with people gaining immense sudden gains in reputation and, much worse, people losing everything and having to scramble again with the insane limitations of a beginner account.


So, rather than going roundabout with it, do the real thing and let people give scores to the posts!
+10 to -10, or +20 to -20 or whatever, then you display the average and the number of voters (and the distribution, or whatever you want) and if you want to base a reputation system on it you base it on the real data, giving the proper weight and separation to the average score and to the number of people who substantiated it.
(and to their agreement? Whatever you want, with the real data!)

And you can have “downvotes” without all their moral and psychological concerns.


And, going back to the beginning, do we really need one, catch-all rating?

What if a question is dull but it gave rise to great answers?
What if an answer is very useful but, alas, it doesn’t answer well the question it refers to?
What if a guy gave it all to help (but didn’t answer)?

In short, I’m not proposing to make available a hundred votable metrics (which might lead to a futile voting-fatigue, among other things), but to think about the ones, if any, that the system needs or that would benefit it enough, and allow those who feel like to use them.

Specifically and in their most suitable format, instead of jamming everything in a single, trending-ready, “Like” (or dislike).

Answer #5
5 years ago Strong Mad

The SE model was to make down votes cost reputation. I think instead, they should take a little extra work. My suggestion would be more like a down vote should be accompanied by a reason, like close votes on SE. If an answer collects enough “down votes” of the same type, then a post notice should get added to the top of the answer explaining what happened.

Off the top of my head, the “down vote” reasons could be something like:

– This answer does not answer the question

– This answer is missing key details

– This answer does not work (this should open another dialog that makes the user explain why it does not work)

– This answer is dangerous (this should probably open another dialog also)

If the person who left the answer comes back and fixes the problems and the fixes are verified by users, then everything should get reset and it should not depend on the people who “down voted” to coming back to change their votes.

Answer #6
5 years ago James Jenkins

Rather then down votes, allow stars to be un-voted. Two people see an answer, one likes it one does not. One stars the post, the other un-stars it. Net = zero stars. With this system you can only counter up votes.

For new questions and answers, grant one star on behalf of the poster automatically. Disregarding trolls, everyone who posts believes their post adds value. Add that star when they post the question or answer.

5 years
James Jenkins — Friday, 24th Apr 2020 18:54

@andriy it is never negative, the worst something can be is 0, and all good posts have at least 1 star.

4 days
Andriy M — Monday, 20th Apr 2020 18:57

@James What’s the difference between your suggestion and regular downvoting?

24 days
PeterVandivier — Friday, 27th Mar 2020 14:11

PeterVandivier — 2 minutes ago in The Tavern

🤔 times like this, it seems like downvoting should really be supported for feature-requests at least to let people quantitatively say “no”

2 months
Jack Douglas — Thursday, 16th Jan 2020 22:53

that’s not an argument against the sort of downvotes you are suggesting, just an explanation of the status quo

Jack Douglas — Thursday, 16th Jan 2020 22:52

@Strong just for information, currently on TA you would flag for your first, third and fourth bullet points, and preferably comment in the question chat room — but nb that all flags are public here.

a day
Paul White — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 15:24

I came here to respond to the various pings but Jack already said everything I would

7 hours
Jack Douglas replying to gop — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 08:45

because the comments/chat aren’t in the main line of the question and answers, I think we can be fairly free to use them as we see fit — I don’t see any need here for deleting/moving comments and all the associated drama on SE 😃

8 hours
gop replying to Jack Douglas — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 01:07

Bye Jack (is this a comment? a chat message? I don’t know, I’ll figure out tomorrow, in case apologies to everyone for the junk. Goodnight)

gop — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 01:04

@Paul I wrote the previous @Paul message by clicking on the comment link under his answer, now I’m not sure if I had understood correctly that that link was for making comments to the questions or not; if it wasn’t… sorry to everyone, do delete or change what you want, I have to leave now and I’ll have to wait tomorrow to figure this site out a little better. Bye

gop — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 00:55

@Paul I’m a bit ashamed, for some reason I became convinced I had already read well enough the other answers, even though… I had really not, I had just skimmed them.
Maybe I thought I would have read them carefully before posting, but I forgot.
Anyway, I should note that this (Paul’s) answer had already come quite close to the many-votable-things of mine (and is quite nice).

19 minutes
Jack Douglas — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 00:37

thanks 😃

gop replying to Jack Douglas — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 00:32

Sure, an interesting experiment if you want, but it seems more likely to lean towards dark patterns than to good things.

We’ll see, in all honesty, I don’t really like question sites in general 😃
It’s just that there are few alternatives at the moment, and if this is going to take the place of SE, I’ll sure try to make it better than that, if I can.

Jack Douglas — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 00:23

Many of the best contributors seem to care less about ‘rep’ — I think the whole gamification emphasis is misguided

gop replying to Jack Douglas — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 00:18

Yes indeed, I actually just started looking at the site, I wasn’t even sure if there (already) was a reputation system or not.
Very comforting to hear speaking against it, but if the site really starts replacing Stack Overflow, there will probably be more and more requests to get closer to that system.

Talking about fairness unfortunately had a place on Stack Exchange because it has insane limitations on the low reputation users, and actually insane levels to reach for access to a lot of its features.
I wouldn’t give a f to my “score” (indeed have a pretty low one on SE), but when they put those things they force you to care, and get frustrated about it (or find some other site).

Jack Douglas — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 00:08

as soon as we start talking about reputation leagues, ‘gaming’, and fairness I think we’ve kidded people into thinking internet fairy points are real money

Jack Douglas — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 00:05

apart from that I think the basic point of voting should be to sort posts — vote up the better answers on each question. And I think this is the one thing that (for all it’s imperfections), SE got exactly right. All that really matters is increasing signal:noise

Jack Douglas — Wednesday, 15th Jan 2020 00:02

@gop some of what we are doing already seems aligned with the sentiment of your answer (but correct me if I’m wrong): (1) allowing multiple votes (2) no votes on questions (3) downplaying ‘reputation’ — not least by not calling it ‘reputation’ (‘stars’ just means ‘stars’, it isn’t pretending to be much of a proxy for your actual knowledge).

a month
Paul White — Friday, 6th Dec 2019 14:26

There are different ways we could approach the idea of rewarding great (not merely acceptable) questions.
But this chat room probably isn’t the place for that.

Paul White — Friday, 6th Dec 2019 14:24

It’s probably a bad time to talk about questions given the still-recent retrospective doubling on SE.

Paul White — Friday, 6th Dec 2019 14:24

And subscriptions now, I suppose.

Paul White — Friday, 6th Dec 2019 14:23

Yes I understand your point of view. An important indicator of question quality is number of answers and edits.

Caleb — Friday, 6th Dec 2019 14:21

Exempting voting on Qs from “rep” or keeping separate counts for Q vs. A scores I might get into, but no indication of question quality is not going over well for me.

Paul White — Friday, 6th Dec 2019 14:21

ok

Caleb replying to Paul White — Friday, 6th Dec 2019 14:20

True. I decided to give that one a while to possible grow on me before objecting. So far it’s not happening.

17 minutes
Paul White — Friday, 6th Dec 2019 14:04

Also…early days.

Paul White — Friday, 6th Dec 2019 14:03

No downvotes and no upvotes for questions is pretty radical.

a day
Caleb — Thursday, 5th Dec 2019 12:31

I agree and am happy to consider more radical, but right now the current implementation is less radical, and the suggestion of “reactions” doesn’t go anywhere near as far as downvotes do.

3 hours
Paul White replying to Caleb — Thursday, 5th Dec 2019 09:38

Judging by the SE sites, downvote and negative score systems are also inadequate. The 10k tools and 10/20k privileges were never up to the task either. Too much poor quality content survives effectively forever. Moderators often don’t want to judge content quality, and 10k+ users lack the tools to do a proper curation job, even if that is what the wider community would agree to.

There are good reasons to at least think about being more radical on Top Answers (TA) sites. It depends on the type of site,and content one wants to build and maintain over the long term. My answer is skewed towards what I would like to see for Databases naturally. I would prefer quite a high bar for content preservation over time, with active curation. Very much more wiki (and much less forum/reddit/whatever) than the SE sites ever achieved. That might not be right for other sites on the platform. I don’t know how much flexibility can be accommodated, but so long as it doesn’t affect Databases, I don’t really mind.

4 hours
Caleb — Thursday, 5th Dec 2019 05:59

Outright dangerous posts should be flagged and deleted. We don’t want those.

Of course that’s easy to say when you look at extremes, but there is a huge range of stuff in between “outright dangerous” and “neutral” that is a bad idea or ill advised. Upvote only systems are insufficient to reflect this. I’m thinking particularly of my experience on the SE U&L site. Very rarely was there anything outright bad enough to flag for deletion. Lots of posts got my upvotes, lots more got left untouched as pretty blah. But there were also lots of suggestions coming up that might appear to solve a problem but also introduce a security flaw or some other risk. Not the kind of thing you want to create the drama of deletion but definitely more than upvoting other posts could correct for. Comments help to explain the issue, but only a negative total score really conveys the message to end users and sometimes the poster that their advice is not sound.

a day
Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 03:37

Yeah same.

Monica replying to Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 03:31

Oh, I didn’t think of going back to the main page and looking there. I’m right here, after all, so I looked here. 😃 Thanks for the edit. (On SE I try to always link rather than just saying so-and-so’s answer, because so-and-so might change names later. Links are more future-proof.)

Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 03:21

I made an edit!

Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 03:21
Paul White replying to Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 03:20

You can, but it’s not easy from here. The main view (the one with the compact answer representation you like) has links per answer on hover.

12 minutes
Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 03:09

Oh, it seems I can’t link to a specific answer.

Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 03:08

Since it was your answer that prompted me to bring it up, might as well be here. 😃

Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 03:07

Maybe I’ll add it in an answer here. I agree it’s not a high priority, but it’s worth considering later.

Paul White replying to Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 03:00

You might think about putting that proposal in a question or answer here somewhere.
It deserves not to get lost, though I don’t see it as a high priority for now.

Monica replying to Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:58

Yeah. The star board doesn’t even have to be live; a tab or something in the transcript would be enough for catching up with a busy room. (That’s what I used to do in TL sometimes – used the stars list but not the star board.)

Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:57

Reactions are more compact and visible than comments. I would hope that for negative reactions especially you’d also leave a comment so the person can improve the post, but that’s going to be less visible to passersby.

Paul White replying to Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:57

Fair enough.

Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:57

I do miss the SE “star board” somewhat.

Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:56

I think the identity of the reactor is for the benefit of readers, not just the author. If I see an answer I’m considering using and it has reactions, I want to know if they’re from people whose opinions I give weight to.

Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:56

One day starred “comments” in chat will be more visible, for longer.

Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:56

In which case, one might as well simply “comment”.

Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:56

The idea of reactions with attribution has merit. I wonder if it needs to be permanently or publicly visible. Perhaps a one-off notification would be enough?

Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:55

Yup. Tell the early users that things might change out from under them, and then set them loose to experiment.

Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:54

It is something I think works really well. Better than we’d hoped I think.
One can never tell which ideas are going to be great or not, which is why I like the try and see approach so much, at least in the early days.

Monica — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:53

Here I can instead decide that a post is worth one star but not five.

Paul White — Wednesday, 4th Dec 2019 02:53

Of course.

Enter question or answer id or url (and optionally further answer ids/urls from the same question) from

Separate each id/url with a space. No need to list your own answers; they will be imported automatically.